Dennis, prodrive y demás rumores Opciones

[`]

A1GP boss scraps plan to buy F1 team

By Alan Baldwin Wednesday, April 30th 2008, 12:47 GMT
A1GP chairman Tony Teixeira said on Wednesday he had scrapped plans to buy a Formula One team after the sport changed its rules to ban the use of so-called 'customer cars'.

Teixeira told Reuters in an interview that A1GP, the self-styled World Cup of Motorsport that runs mostly during the European winter, had wanted to buy a Formula One team to promote the winners of his series.

"We wanted an A1 team in F1 where our winners from the A1GP series would go and race in F1," he said. "The reason for that has always been that every kid's aspiration ultimately is to end up in F1."

Teixeira, whose cars will be designed and powered by Ferrari from next season, had talked to Ferrari-powered Spyker before that team were bought by Indian billionaire Vijay Mallya and renamed Force India.

He then switched his attention to Ferrari-powered Toro Rosso, co-owned by Austrian energy drink billionaire Dietrich Mateschitz and former racer Gerhard Berger.

Mateschitz said last month Red Bull would sell Toro Rosso before 2010 because of the change in rules forcing all teams to design and build their own cars. Teixeira said his talks with the team ended late last year.

"We wanted to be running at the top, and that means top 10," he explained.

"The only way we were going to achieve that was with the customer cars. In other words, we were going to be the Ferrari B team and that's why I was willing to buy Toro Rosso.

"Initially it was Spyker, because I already had a deal with Ferrari and that was the biggest thing that attracted me.

"I then made way for Vijay to buy Spyker because (F1 supremo) Bernie (Ecclestone) needed India and I said 'Fine, I'll make way and look more favourably at Toro Rosso', which had a similar agreement (with Ferrari)," continued the South African businessman.

"I sat with Toro Rosso and when we were close to a deal, F1 changed the rules: No customer cars. When they changed the rules, I was through.

"As you know, Prodrive walked away," he added, referring to that British company's decision not to take up the allocated slot as Formula One's 12th team.

"That was going to be the McLaren B team. It was going to be Red Bull running with Renault, Williams with Toyota and Aguri with Honda. That makes sense to us because there was no way we could go and develop our own chassis and be competitive.

"I don't profess to have that kind of money and even if I did I wouldn't put it into F1, it would be madness," added Teixeira.

"All we were looking to do was promote A1 through F1, because we still believe F1 is the biggest promoting machine available."

Teixeira was speaking before the final round of the A1GP season at Brands Hatch and with Formula One facing the possibility of losing one of its 11 teams, struggling Super Aguri, before the next grand prix in Turkey.

Super Aguri are backed by Honda, with their car a development of last year's Honda. Toro Rosso and Red Bull Racing also run cars from a common design team but that will not be allowed after next year.

Teixeira said he had looked again at Super Aguri as recently as 10 days ago but could see nothing there of interest to A1GP.

"If the rules change, we will be the first guys to look for a team," he said.

"I think everyone knows that, Dietrich Mateschitz knows, while I have explained to Super Aguri that I can't be Honda and Ferrari.

"If the rules change, I would look for a spot in F1. If the rules don't change, there's nothing in it for us."

[tenista]

Si no he entendido mal, Yossi, quiere entrar en la F1 a toda costa, comprando el primer equipo que se le ponga a tiro pero siempre y cuando las normas cambien y se permitan los equipos cliente, si no nada que hacer, ¿verdad?.

[monza2001]

Si no he entendido mal, Yossi, quiere entrar en la F1 a toda costa, comprando el primer equipo que se le ponga a tiro pero siempre y cuando las normas cambien y se permitan los equipos cliente, si no nada que hacer, ¿verdad?.

Por mucho que lo compre Teixeira o Paco Porras el problema va a ser el mismo. Si no se pueden tener coches clientes lo normal es que nadie este interesado en comprar un equipo, salvo que vengas con un fabricante detrás. cosa muy dificil viendo como está el tema.

[`]

Viene a decir que el no quiere comprar un equipo para estar en el peloton de atras y si lo quiere para estar en el top10 y que la unica forma es permitir competir con los famosos coches clientes que puede usar de momento toro rosso pero prodrive por ejemplo no.

[ABCV]

Yo sigo siendo muy reticente en el tema de los equipos cliente. Son muchos los que se han currado a tope ser ganadores con su material (vease Mclaren, Ferrari, Williams, etc) para que ahora otro equipo entre nuevo y sin apenas esfuerzo beneficiándose de otros materiales.
Sigo siendo partidario de que cada uno se fabrique sus chasis y evolucione su material. Permitir coches cliente es permitir polémica puesto que ya la hemos tenido este año con el posible beneficio que pueda haber sacado Honda aprovechándose del kilometraje de Super Aguri.
Un coche cliente o un equipo B son prácticamente unos filiales, y como en el futbol creo que estos deberían estar metidos en otras categorías (GP2, WS, F3, etc).

[AC99]

Yo sigo siendo muy reticente en el tema de los equipos cliente. Son muchos los que se han currado a tope ser ganadores con su material (vease Mclaren, Ferrari, Williams, etc) para que ahora otro equipo entre nuevo y sin apenas esfuerzo beneficiándose de otros materiales.
Sigo siendo partidario de que cada uno se fabrique sus chasis y evolucione su material. Permitir coches cliente es permitir polémica puesto que ya la hemos tenido este año con el posible beneficio que pueda haber sacado Honda aprovechándose del kilometraje de Super Aguri.
Un coche cliente o un equipo B son prácticamente unos filiales, y como en el futbol creo que estos deberían estar metidos en otras categorías (GP2, WS, F3, etc).

Entiendo tu postura, pero en la F1 actual, si no te suministra nadie ciertas piezas, es absolutamente imposible que entre un equipo privado.

O se permite a los privados tener piezas de equipos oficiales, o no puede haber privados, no es viable en la situación actual de la F1 (túnel de viento, ordenadores ultra potentes, cientos de ingenieros, simuladores etc.)

Saludos!

[`]

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_new...id=34658%3C/lin

New name linked with Super Aguri buy-out

It is being reported that the Weigl Group, a German automotive company, is interested in making a bid for the Super Aguri F1 team.

Company boss Franz Josef Weigl, a former motor-cycle racer, is understood to have attended the Spanish GP at the weekend, leading to speculation that the German company could be the Japanese outfit's saviour.

The bad news is that the sort of money being mentioned (£6.5 million) wouldn't pay Ferrari's catering costs for a GP weekend, and would probably only tide Super Aguri over for a few races.

Then again, with Honda understood to have said that they are no longer willing to financially aid the ailing Leafield outfit, having already stumped up a rumoured £50 million, Super Aguri might decide that the Weigl Group constitutes a gift horse that shouldn't be looked in the mouth.

On the other hand, talk of a deal with Weigl might well kick-start Dubai International Capital, the investors behind the Magma Group's buy-out, in to action.

There are thought to be several other potential purchasers looking at Super Aguri, including several outfits that failed to get the so-called twelfth-slot which was subsequently handed to David Richards Prodrive.

[KIT]

solo me remonto a hace años con la polémica de los constructores y el campeonato paralelo... que querian hacer.

Es el mismo problema... poco a poco los constructores se han introducido... Y SE HAN CARGADO A LOS EQUIPOS (Jordan, Arrows, Minardi, Sauber, Benetton...) es cierto que algunos han sido comprados y otros comparten el accionarado con es el caso de Mclaren así que no se si podemos tratar a Mclaren como tal... el unico que queda es Williams y porque no supieron llegar a un acuerdo con BMW... tarde o temprano tendrán que ceder... el otro equipo es RED BULL pero su creacion es a raiz de el pastón de una bebida energética ... a parte de su compromiso con la competición hay un claro objetivo PUBLICITARIO.

TODOS los demas equipos LES INTERESAN los equipos clientes... el problema es que estos equipos pueden pasarle la mano por la cara y precisamente restarles beneficios... es como el pez que se muerde la cola.

Te QUIERO ... PERO NO QUIERO QUE ME GANES.

no hay otra tanto para unos como para otros ... los equipos clientes deben EXISTIR y son necesarios... supongo y la verdad creo que deverian llegar a algun tipo de acuerdo para suministrar solo material del año anterior para contrarestar la "supuesta" ventaja de los clientes... aunque un material antiguo no asegura peores resultados ya que los F1 dependen de muchos otros factores. y un motor con menos potencia puede ganar a otro monoplaza con 50 cv menos... así que difícil solución tiene todo esto.

Por lo contrario gracias a los equipos CONSTRUCTORES ... han hecho que esto sea un disparate y que cada dia se encarezca mas y los equipos como tales están tarde o temprano condenados a desparecer si no se asocian con un gran constructor.

Esto tenía solución hace 10 años... ahora es muy complicado e inevitable que lleguen equipos clientes. Ya hemos visto lo canutas que las pasa AGURI y es un EQUIPO CLIENTE. y que nadie dude que la fuente de FORCE INDIA .. tambien se secará pueden ser un equipo con mas o menos cara... pero está basado en intereses.... y me temo que más de un par de años no lo vamos a tener en parrilla.

[tenista]

Amen Kit.

Como he dicho varias veces, sin equipos cliente, no hay F1.

[BITTER]

Totalmente de acuerdo contigo KIT, aunque yo no rebajaría el potencial "romántico" de Red Bull Racing como equipo privado. Sea como fuere su origen (intereses publicitarios), Red Bull Racing va a ser uno de los grandes activos de la F1 en la próxima década, para mí, es un equipo super atractivo y al que me gusta animar (claro que sin Coulthard no les animaría con tantas fuerzas ).

Si Red Bull acaba vendiendo el 50% de Toro Rosso, quizá una parte de los ingresos de la venta recaigan en Red Bull Racing, lo que podría suponer un gran salto de calidad para esta escudería.

[monza2001]

Si Red Bull acaba vendiendo el 50% de Toro Rosso, quizá una parte de los ingresos de la venta recaigan en Red Bull Racing, lo que podría suponer un gran salto de calidad para esta escudería.

El problema que hay es que Toro Rosso tiene a día de hoy fecha de caducidad por el tema de los coches clientes. Esto tendrá un efecto negativo en la venta de Toro Rosso, salvo que cambien las normas y se permitan los clientes, ya que su valor será mucho más bajo.

[cies]

Yo sigo siendo muy reticente en el tema de los equipos cliente. Son muchos los que se han currado a tope ser ganadores con su material (vease Mclaren, Ferrari, Williams, etc) para que ahora otro equipo entre nuevo y sin apenas esfuerzo beneficiándose de otros materiales.

amigo ABCV:
todos los equipos dependen de otros que les venden piezas y materiales para ellos.
La mayoría de suministradores están en Inglaterra.
Por eso se dice que si fundas un equipo F1 te facilita la vida que tengas sede en Inglaterra.
Otro tema es el de los diseños.
¿quizá te referías a eso?

[ABCV]

amigo ABCV:
todos los equipos dependen de otros que les venden piezas y materiales para ellos.
La mayoría de suministradores están en Inglaterra.
Por eso se dice que si fundas un equipo F1 te facilita la vida que tengas sede en Inglaterra.
Otro tema es el de los diseños.
¿quizá te referías a eso?

Si, me refería mas al tema del diseño. Por ejemplo soy reticente a que Prodrive sa un calco de Mclaren o a que Aguri sea un calco de Honda. Obviamente no me opongo a que Renault motorice a Red Bull o a que Toyota motorice a Williams.

[KIT]

Pues tiene gracia porque hace unos meses precisamente MAX HARD CAPONE... decía que lo que no podía ser es que su forma y diseño fuera exactamente igual .


¿¿¿¿¿¿¿??????¿¿¿¿¿?????¿¿¿¿????

Ezu que eh lu que eh?...

Eing?...

Mande?...

Usease... que si pillamos un R28... sin el famoso "timón" sobre el capó motor.... YA NO ESTAMOS COPIANDO?...

Si pillamos una HONDA 2008 le quitamos un par de apéndices aerodinámicos y no le ponemos la gaviota en el morro.... ¿ya está todo permitido?...

QUE ACLAREN ESE PUNTO!!! porque la clave podría estar ahí!!! y no creo que eso supusiera mucho follón para ningún cliente... se trata de "tunear" disimuladamente y listo.

Es que no me lo explico la verdad!!!

Obviamente cuando se refieren a constuir se refieren a construir su propio chasis... porque sería muy facil poner o quitar según que piececita... vamos qu incluso McLaren (por poner un ejemplo) le podría alquilar un dia el tunel de viento a Richards para poner una piececita distinta!!!

La verdad es que por mucho que lea y escuche... me es imposible entender nada al respecto.

[tenista]

Kit, no hay que darle mas vueltas, simplemente ha sucedido todo orque BMW se ha visto amenazada por los equipos cliente, en este caso prodrive. Como dije hace mucho tiempo, no estan dispuestos a perder parte de su pastel.

Dinero y nada mas que dinero. "Si pusiesen una norma como, canon de entrada de equipos cliente a repartir entre los equipos constructores, excepto al equipo constructor del que se sea cliente", me juego lo que querais a que todo se solucionaba.

Cerdos materialistas

[`]

Red Bull settles Force India car row?

May 16 (GMM) Force India's legal pursuit of formula one competitors using so-called 'customer cars' may now be over.



Then under the Spyker banner, the Silverstone based team commenced arbitration against Super Aguri and Force India more than a year ago, arguing that their use of cars not designed by themselves is against the rules.



With Super Aguri now folded, however, the German magazine Sport Bild reports that the remaining parties - Force India and the partially Red Bull-owned Toro Rosso - have now sat down in an attempt to end the row once and for all.



Reportedly, Force India chiefs Vijay Mallya and Colin Kolles met in Salzburg at the Red Bull-owned restaurant 'Carpe Diem' with Dietrich Mateschitz's lawyer.



It is believed a settlement totalling 8 million euros was agreed by Red Bull.



Kolles confirmed to Sport Bild: "I think we will find a way forward now."

[tenista]

Mas leña al fuego..................

Si no puedo prestarte un coche, te lo compro o como en este caso, si no he entendido mal, te doy pasta para que lo compres.

Posteriormente, vendra el... "cuidadin con adelantarme en carrera"

Por supuesto la MAFIA, como bien dice Kit, lo tendra que investigar, no para ver si esta todo bien, sino para ver si le conviene.

Tal vez sea la unica forma de que entren otros equipos, sin que nadie diga nada.

[`]

Sinceramente yo no entiendo nada, aqui la noticia en español



El STR3 ha sido diseñado por Red Bull Technologies
Las acciones legales emprendidas por Force India contra algunos de sus rivales en el Mundial de F1 por el uso de los llamados 'coches cliente' podrían estar a punto de finalizar.

Entonces bajo el nombre de Spyker, el equipo con base en Silverstone recurrió a un tribunal de arbitraje para denunciar a Super y Toro Rosso por utilizar coches que no habían sido diseñados por ellos, lo que va en contra de la actual reglamentación.

Sin embargo, ahora que Super Aguri ya ha desaparecido de la parrilla, la revista alemana Sport Bild publica que las dos partes que quedan en litigio, Force India y Toro Rosso, propiedad de Red Bull, se han sentado a negociar para poner fin a esta disputa legal.


Según esta información, los jefes del equipo Force India, Vijay Mallya y Colin Kolles, se reunieron en Salzburgo en el restaurante 'Carpe Diem', propiedad de Dietrich Mateschitz, con el abogado de este último.

Se cree que se podría haber llegado a un acuerdo de ocho millones de Euros a pagar por Red Bull.

Kolles confirmaba a Sport Bild que "creo que encontraremos una vía de solución."

L.S. / Fuente: GMM
© CAPSIS International

[KIT]

JUAN PALOMO, YO ME LO GUISO. YO ME LO COMO!!!

Que conste que no estoy en absoluto de acuerdo si realmente esto es cierto y se tienen un teje maneje así... pero la verdad... si lo hacen!!! muy a mi pesar.... NO tenemos derecho a quejarnos, ni los aficionados, ni los equipos.... esto sería fruto de las normas ABSURDAS y ESTUPIDECES de la maFIA, hecha la ley... hecha la trampa!!! que casi que me voy a alegrar, porque entonces no habría manera de controlar lo de los equipos cliente.

[`]

Berger exclusive - customer cars, the FIA Presidency, and those sale rumours
After almost 25 years in the business, there is absolutely no way of pulling the wool over Gerhard Bergers eyes. As a driver, he was always his own manager, and as such learnt as much off track as he did on it. Now, as the guiding force behind Toro Rosso, Berger is calling on all this commercial acumen to ride his toughest storm yet. Over the coming months he hopes to see the customer car debate finally put to bed, but then faces co-owner Dietrich Mateschitz selling off his slice of the team. A candid Berger, however, seems unfazed by the future

Q: Gerhard, what is the state of affairs concerning customer car discussions - and your disagreement with Force India on the matter?
Gerhard Berger: Well, the situation has definitely changed since Super Aguri dropped out of the championship, as now all ten remaining teams are eligible for the TV money allocation. Leaving aside that I still believe one hundred percent that we are fulfilling the wording of the regulations, now the lawyers are working on a compromise that everybody can live with. I think it cannot really be in the interest of all involved to spend a lot of money on lawyers and court procedures - we should focus instead on the sport.

Q: Rumour has it that Red Bull has agreed to pay a bonus to Force India this year. Is that true?
GB: This is still in the hands of the lawyers - lets see what the outcome is. My guess is that it will be finalised within the next couple of days.

Q: And where are the discussions regarding customer cars beyond the end of this season? You said that nothing is final yet
GB: There is an agreement between the teams that from 2010 on there will be clear wording that defines what is a constructor and what is not. If nothing changes, from 2010 onwards we have to be a constructor in the wording of the new Concorde Agreement.

Q: Red Bulls Dietrich Mateschitz will not finance a second team if there is no synergy permitted between his two teams. If customer cars were to become legal, is it possible he might change his mind on selling his share of Toro Rosso?
GB: I dont know, thats a question for Didi (Dietrich) Mateschitz!

Q: Following the loss of Super Aguri, everybody seems to have realised that budget caps are overdue. How would you restructure team expenses to economize?
GB: I see that as a very complex process where specialists have to work on it and make the right proposals. The crucial thing will always be to make everybody think in the same way - that the costs really have to come down. At the moment you have some teams and individuals who strongly believe that costs have to be controlled. And on the other hand, you have those who say we dont have a cost problem, we would like to go on as we do now because this is Formula One and we have the money. The others have to see that they find the money. There are two views and I am not sure which one will succeed, as the manufacturers want to show off all their technical abilities. If Force India and ourselves had a manufacturer behind us, we probably would not be in that discussion. But as we dont, the question is whether in the future there will be room for an independent team to survive in a fair way, so that the market gives the possibility to find the money. I think the goal must be to give independent teams a chance to be competitive, because to be last is ultimately not worthwhile.

Q: For private teams to find money is very difficult. What could or should be done to help that?
GB: I think you have to find a way to value yourself. Today if you see the marketable (sponsorship) areas on the car, and you know that a budget is minimum 120 to 150 million Euros, then you know the price that you have to ask for certain areas. This price is not really fitting together with the return on investment for the sponsor. This only works if you have a winning team, one with a big history - if you are Ferrari, thats fine, but if you are building up a team then thats a problem.

Q: So what would you see as an option?
GB: Im not sure I should say this because people will point out that I am speaking purely on my own behalf, but when I step back for a moment from the Toro Rosso side, I still believe that if the pot was split in equal parts it would firstly help, and secondly, be much more fair because every team would be part of the show. It does not help Toyota to run alone. On top of that, the teams winning races have the advantage of being on television much more, which in turn gives them a much better position to get sponsorship money. (McLaren team principal) Ron Dennis will not agree with me, but I think it would be the better system.

Q: If Toro Rosso wants to have a future - and attract investors - presumably it must transform itself into a constructor team. This sounds like a costly undertaking. When should this process start if it needs to be finished by 2010?
GB: It is a constructor team! Minardi (which Red Bull bought and transformed into Toro Rosso) always was a constructor team. True, we are using Red Bull Technology, which means that we have engineers there thinking for us. In the future, you might say that there should be a spatial separation and that those engineers should be in our factory - that would probably include 30 to 40 people. But there has never been a rule that you could not outsource a wind tunnel or the production of parts. And that goes way back. What I think people want to tighten up is the wording defining what a constructor is. There we probably need some modification, but for Toro Rosso it is no big issue - especially with two years in which to do it.

Q: How do you see the teams responsibilities towards its drivers? They obviously signed a contract under different conditions
GB: That is something a driver always faces. Because in the same breath you could argue that Lewis Hamilton signed with McLaren without knowing that they would sell 30 percent to the Bahrainis. You never know the outcome of such a situation, except that probably the team is benefiting from such a move. Looking at us, I can say that we did a good job so far, so it would be sad if all that fell apart. For the drivers, I think that they have got what they expected to get and in the second half of the season it should be even better.

Q: And how do you see your personal future in Formula One racing. There have been whispers connecting you to the FIA Presidency
GB: I heard that too. I have to say it is nice to hear that some people think you should put on those shoes, but its nothing that I would like to do. I was always interested in the sport, in the cars, the drivers, the teams, the fighting on the circuit. And doesnt the old saying warn against trying on shoes that are too big for you?

Q: And what about the recent rumours that a possible candidate to take over Dietrich Mateschitzs shares in Toro Rosso has emerged?
GB: We are in talks with a number of interested parties. Ask me when the ink on the contract is dry who came out on top.